Under The Learning Tree – An Exclusive Interview With WWE Legend And OVW Co-owner Allen Sarven (Al Snow)- Part 2
In this second, and final, part of the exclusive interview I did with the legendary Allen Sarven, we discuss how he came to own OVW, the success of the Netflix series ‘Wrestlers’ and his thoughts on the wrestling business today, as well as his opinion on some popular topics.
In 2018, you bought Ohio Valley Wrestling (OVW). What made you decide to go into this venture and side of the business?
“I think that’s where I really did have a nervous breakdown (chuckling), I think I lost my mind and thought “Why not rib myself, pull a practical joke and own a wrestling company”. I don’t know, it was not part of the plan. I was getting frustrated, honestly that frustration is still there, because like I said, when I broke into the business there were standards. If you were a professional wrestler, it was an honour because there were so few that could do it and were allowed in it.”
“It’d be like being on an elite soccer/ football team in England, a few people get to go out there and even fewer get to really play on an elite level, you know. Years ago, there was a commercial, I’m sure you can still find it on YouTube, and it was for this employment service called Monster.com. This is the best way I can explain to you what has happened in the wrestling business and where my frustration lied, and it still lies.”
“The commercial starts, and there are two people playing a very high level tennis match and they’re volleying back and forth, ok. All of a sudden, two more people run on the court and the game gets a little like “What the? What’s going on?”, you know, so they join in but it’s not the same now that the two main players’ match is getting screwed up. Two more people run in, two more people run in, two more, and then the camera pulls back and all the people from the stands are now running and jumping on the court, and the game’s ruined.”
“That, I feel, is what’s happened to professional wrestling. You can go anywhere now, there’s a proliferation of schools, no one is held accountable, there are no standards and you can just pay your money and get trained. That used to not be the case, it used to be that your trainer was held accountable. If you messed up, that affected how they made a living and those days are gone. I was sitting in locker rooms and I was looking around and, at fifty-whatever years old, I was the one guy that looked most like a wrestler and that shouldn’t be the case.”
Do you feel there is a difference in mentality and attitude with wrestling today, compared to the past?
“I’m not in great shape, but I at least look the part, ok, not to mention I still have enough physically to where I can have enough athletic endurance to do it safely, that was my biggest thing. If I’m looking around locker rooms all over the world; England, the United States, Canada, Mexico, I’m looking at just aesthetically and cosmetically, because it is an aesthetic and cosmetic business, that you should walk through the curtain and people should look at you and believe that you make your living in a competitive, combat situation. Period. If they look at you, the minute you walk through the curtain, and can’t believe that, we’re done.”
“That aside, you out of respect for yourself but, more importantly, respect for your opponent should be in physical condition to where you are safe enough and responsible enough to where you minimise the risk of you getting injured or, especially, your opponent. I see far too many who; Don’t. Take. This. Seriously, enough to be in that type of physical condition, and they can make whatever excuse they want to make or justification but then don’t do it.”
“If you’re not going to treat this as an actual professional PROFESSION, because the first part of professional is ‘profession’, then don’t do it. Someone will say “I had a dream”, well it’s going to stay a dream, and that sounds harsh for me to say but, like I mentioned before, you can do anything you want if you want it bad enough. If you want something bad enough, you’ll find a way, if you don’t then you’ll find an excuse, no if’s, and’s or but’s about it. I’ll say that till the day I die.”
“I literally watched Vince McMahon work eighteen hours a day. I literally watched that man come in, in the afternoon, into the gym that was there at the office, in Stamford, when I was doing Tough Enough and then came in later that evening to work out again. When I’m like “Why are you here twice?” he goes “I missed yesterday”. Triple H, who’s become COO and he’s got all the responsibility of running a multi – billion dollar company, right, gets up at 6 o’ clock, or whatever, in the morning to take his daughters to school, goes to work and then trains at 10 o’ clock at night. Why? Cause he makes the choice that that’s what he’s going to commit to do.”
What have you done to make OVW different to the other promotions, in terms of standards?
“No matter, there needs to be standards and, as a result, I started approaching a bunch of different athletic commissions, in different states, that govern wrestling and boxing because you have to have a license. In the United States, if you want to be; a hairdresser, a mortician, a barber, or a licensed therapeutic masseuse like my wife, you have to have to go to a state-accredited school, be taught by a state- accredited teacher, complete a certain number of hours of training and hands on experience and then, and only then do you get to take a test, to get a license to be whatever the vocation is.”
“When it comes to wrestling, I found it insulting, quite honestly found it insulting that, no matter what the commission is, the most you have to do is take a physical, maybe take a blood test and pay your money. That’s it. I think that is complete and utter BS and this is what ended up motivating me and got me involved in buying OVW. I set standards on training, on performance and on people’s look, in terms of making them look like they can go out there, compete and whip somebody’s ass, which they do. They (the talent roster) are also athletically in enough condition to the point where they are never disrespectful, irresponsible or potentially injurious to themselves or others.”
“We’re the only in the world, OVW academy is the only one (wrestling academy) in the world that is accredited by the (Kentucky) State Office of Proprietary Education as a trade school. That’s because we, me and my partner Chad Miller, went through a two – year long ordeal and submitted a thick binder of forms in order to adhere to all of their requirements, to be accredited as an actual trade school. I did this, because I want to hold myself, everybody who’s in this academy and everyone in OVW to a higher standard because each and every one of them carry my reputation on them, and I’m never going to allow someone to ruin my reputation.”
“At the end of the day, no matter how much money you make, no matter how successful you are, how famous you are, the only thing, at the end of the day, you have is your name. That’s it. That’s the only thing of real value that you have, that you keep even after you die. So, I’m not going to let somebody ruin that.”
“Sorry, I got on a rant about it, I’m very passionate it about it.”
On the 13th September 2023, Netflix released a seven – episode series called ‘Wrestlers’. The series follows the company as it builds up to its make or break PPV – The Big One. How did this come about?
“It was a million and one, you know, as it obviously must’ve been fated to happen because I had to take on other partners due to COVID. We were, really, just starting to build through the process and attract a wider audience but then COVID hit and really crippled us. So, we necessitated to take on additional partners and that was how Craig Greenberg, Matt Jones and Dr. Jeff Tuvlin came on board.”
“Craig and his wife were, from what I understand, were high school friends with an executive from BBC America who just happened, around that same time, to come to a wedding they (Craig and his wife) were at, and they reconnected. Somewhere, a conversation started about owning a wrestling company and then she takes this out to another BBC executive named Alejandro Melendez, who comes over and they do a five minute ‘teaser’ tape to present to Greg Whiteley, who’s the director of Last Chance U and Cheer.”
“Greg, well quite honestly it’s a testament to his talent, he and his crew’s talent, how good this all turned out and how amazing it turned out. He (Greg) then gets interested in the project, he goes to Netflix and they send him out to film like a ‘teaser’ episode that they can show the executives at Netflix, and then they agreed to do it.”
“So, last May, Greg and his crew showed up, last week of May, and they were here until the end of August. They brought cameras in and were there 7 days a week, twelve/ sixteen hours a day to literally just film everything and, I can’t emphasise this enough; it is not a reality show, it’s not like anybody came in and said “Hey, we need you to do this” or “Act this way”.”
“In fact, I went out of my way to tell Greg and the crew that I wasn’t going to act or behave or do anything different, because I have a responsibility to OVW, I have a responsibility to my company, I have a responsibility to the talent and to the staff. I told them “I’m going to be and do and say everything I would, whether you’re here or not, and I ain’t gonna change” and they were like “Ok, that’s fine”. They came in and filmed it, so what you see, I mean I wish some things weren’t on there as I look back now and think “What the hell were they thinking?” (chuckling).”
“I wish it was contrived, you know haha, but all of it is quite real, 100%, and the people you see and the way they act or the stuff they say, that’s all them, 100%. So, you know, that’s the only ‘criticism’ I’ve seen online is people saying or thinking that it was made- up or not real. However, let me assure you, like I said, I wished, really genuinely wished (chuckling), some of the stuff I was seeing on camera was fake as I was like “Oh man. What the hell is going on?” and wouldn’t have to deal with it.”
How did you find the process behind the scenes, as an old – school mind of the business?
“Well, obviously, I was very reticent and reluctant when they first approached me about it as I was like “Mmm, I don’t know about this.” but, I trusted Greg and I think, rightfully so, I trusted him to do it in such a manner that it was respectful. We pulled the curtain back, but we didn’t pull it so far back.”
“So, like, people think when I say something like, you mentioned how wrestling has always been kind of closed off, and the reason it has is not because people didn’t know that wrestling is pre-determined. I mean, here in the United States, they’ve known since the 1940’s that wrestling is pre-determined and in England I remember I was watching a Monty Python skit back in the 70’s, as a kid, where the two wrestlers would be snarling at each other, then go to lock up and one would say “Oh, are you coming over for tea?”.”
“So they’d talk to each other like a regular conversation when they were in holds (chuckling) and then they’d get back up like they were angry. The last place, quite honestly, in the modern world, that really kind of held out, as far as society wise, not being aware was Japan. I mean, even when I was going over there in ’95, it was still very protected in the knowledge that it was pre-determined.”
“Plus, there was always that agreement between us; the fans and the wrestlers, that we know you know that we know you know but we’re not going to do anything to rub it in your face and ruin it for you. Then the fans were like; we know you know that we know so please just don’t insult us, let us have fun and we (the fans and the wrestlers) kept it at that, you know.”
“The reason I think that’s wise is because when you watch the Wizard of Oz, when Dorothy goes to Oz everything is magical, everything is possible, everything is in colour, it’s vibrant, it’s exciting! Then, at the very end, you pull the curtain back and it’s just some squat little old man pushing buttons and pulling levers, so there’s no more magic. I was hoping, and I think it accomplished it through Greg, that if we opened up then Greg would do it in such a way where you could see there’s a little man in there, but you couldn’t see what he was doing, which keeps a lot of the ‘magic’ there.”
Has the company seen a surge in notoriety since the release of the docuseries?
“It was my hope, and my endeavour, that by doing this then if you are a wrestling fan then it would increase your appreciation and respect for it, for the wrestlers and what they have to go through. However, if you weren’t a wrestling fan then it would give you some appreciation and respect but maybe also catch your imagination and interest, and you might become a wrestling fan. I know from experience with Tough Enough, that, to this day, people still come up to me and say that they were never a wrestling fan but after they watched Tough Enough, they got hooked and became a wrestling fan.”
“It’s been great (the series), it’s doing exactly what I knew it would do, which with any business, you need relevancy and you need awareness, and this exposure has give us both of those. It’s increased our awareness and made us more relevant so, now, we’re selling out our television events a week in advance, we’ve already sold out our PPV event on October 21st, on FITE TV, and the live attendance in the building two weeks ago.”
“I don’t know what it is, especially since I’ve bought it, but all the major wrestling ‘journalists’ and I use that term loosely, and I mean good for them they’re making money and all that…congratulations, but they totally ignore everything that goes on in OVW. Like I said, and I mean they’re not major national networks in the United States, but we have a combined reach of about 100,000,000 plus homes, in partnership with the six or seven national networks we work with. From Canada, all the way down to Puerto Rico, to Guam, Virgin Islands and the Bahamas, but nobody talks about it.“
“We’re the only accredited, by the State Office of Proprietary Education who oversee colleges, trade schools and universities, school in the wrestling business credited by a State office of education….nobody talks about it. We’re on FITE TV every Thursday night, outside of WWE and AEW, we’re the only other ones who produce a LIVE television show on a weekly basis…no one says anything about it. We are literally at 1,260 consecutive episodes, one episode ahead of WWE Smackdown, ok, but nobody talks about it.”
“I don’t know what it is and I really, at this point, don’t care anymore. If you pay attention, the ‘major’ wrestling journalists, we were in; Forbes, Variety, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Esquire and People Magazine, for this show. Do you know who hasn’t said a word about it? Dave Meltzer, Wade Keller or anyone with those big, major wrestling news platforms have said a word about it.”
“It’s a project that presents professional wrestling in the most positive light it can, on one of the biggest streaming networks in the world, it’s bee translated in forty-two different languages….but not a word. We’re the only other place where you can get that experience, as a performer, of performing on live television before you end up in WWE or AEW and nobody talks about it, which is fine because we’re going to be successful no matter what and I knew that when I first took over.”
“The reason I wanted to do it live was, one, if you’re WWE or AEW and you have a talent you’re interested in, that’s been here (OVW), then your investment in that talent goes up because they’ve had so much experience on live television so will be ready to walk out and perform on your live television. The biggest complaint about AEW, when it first started, was they were bringing in a bunch of independent talent that did not know how to operate on live television and do what they need to do with the cameras, etc. You don’t need to worry about that with the talent here in OVW.”
How much of an impact has Vince McMahon, and working for him, had on your ownership style, or have you gone about it your own way?
“I think I’be gone about it my own way, but he certainly has a major influence. I think people will say what they want about Vince, and yeah he can be harsh or difficult, but he’s the boss and I’ve also seen Vince operate with a sense of integrity, standards and ethics as far as professionalism and making WWE what it is. Let’s face it, regardless of what you think of the man, if it were not for Vince McMahon then the landscape of professional wrestling as it is now, and where it is at, would not be. Period.”
“If it were not for Vince McMahon, you would not have a WrestleMania. If it were not for Vince McMahon, then you would not of had the Attitude Era, you would of never had a Stone Cold Steve Austin, a Hulk Hogan, The Rock, John Cena or The Undertaker. Now, granted, all he did was create a platform for them, but he so believed in creating a platform that came across on a certain level of professionalism that was to a high standard, that is something I do the same here (in OVW).
“Hey, I know it’s some little, independent, regional promotion but, you know what, when you walk in there it’s going to feel like something more and something special because I’m going to hold everybody to that high standard. I want, when my talent go other places, the talent in the other locker rooms look up to them but the only way that’s going to happen is if I keep pushing and keep everyone where I want them to be, and all of that I did take from Vince McMahon.”
“That remark about no such word as “can’t”, when I was in WWE. When I first got here (OVW), you know, this guy is awesome, he does everything and his name is Daniel Brown and he works behind the scenes, we also come up with great stuff between us and make things happen. The reason we do, is because when I first told him that I wanted to do this, or do that, he said I can’t do it and I told him the same story about Vince and how people said you never say “can’t” to Vince. You can come up with suggestions, but never say “can’t”. So, after telling him the story about Vince, I said that I subscribe to the same thing so telling me “You can’t”.”
“There’s a way, and we’ll figure it out, we just need to figure it out but “can’t” ain’t going to happen and, as a result, we’ve been able to do what we’ve been able to do and lay the groundwork that then enticed a guy like Greg Whiteley to come here, do his magic, and then show it to the rest of the world.”
“In terms of approaching the product, I subscribe to the same as Vince because I want people to be able to have the best experience. One of the biggest compliments we’ve gotten, over the past several years, is when audience members, who’ve never watched wrestling, both male and female, come in and watch but then say “Oh I loved it! I knew who to boo for, who to cheer, I figured out what was going on as to why they didn’t like each other and knew the backstories”. That really means a lot to me.”
“It means a lot to me because If I cannot communicate, thoroughly enough, who they are and why they’re doing what they’re doing then you’re never going to enjoy it, it’ll just be a bunch of athleticism without any meaning.”
Looking at today’s wrestling product, as a whole, what do you think is lacking? On the flip side, what do you feel has improved since your days in the squared – circle?
“Tonnes, tonnes has improved in terms of presentation, production, etc. If you cannot be a star, on either one of these platforms (WWE or AEW) that they’re presenting and giving you the opportunity to be on, you can’t be a star. Quite honestly. That’s your fault (the performer) because when you walk through the curtain, as a talent, that’s your responsibility to make yourself a star.”
“Vince McMahon does not make you a star. Tony Khan doesn’t make you a star. YOU take advantage of, and create, something that he (Vince or Tony) can exploit so the two of you can now go and make money together. That’s fact. So, that’s changed for the better and it just keeps evolving.”
“However, the belief that the business, as a whole, has changed is complete and utter BS, and it’s just a way to justify their behaviour and what they are doing. The ‘Wrestlers’, and that’s what they are, are wrestlers and performers, they’re not ‘workers’. The term ‘work’ or definition of a ‘work’ is to make you believe a lie. The ONLY lie, that is in professional wrestling, is that we know who’s going to win and we’re out there trying to convince you (the fans) that we don’t and that we have the intent to try and beat the other person/ opponent. So, until you’ve reinvented something, that is THE lie, or come up with something new that is fake, that we’re now trying to convince you (the audience) of, then it hasn’t changed.”
“Unfortunately, the wrestlers no longer ‘work’ you as a fan into believing that lie, they now simply perform moves because that’s what they think you are buying a ticket to see is their athleticism, which there is more of in the wrestling business than there ever has been. Does it motivate anybody to pay to see them? No. Why? Because they are not selling you WHO they are and they are not selling you WHY they’re doing it, but instead they are trying to sell/convince you of WHAT they do. That’s where the biggest loss is.”
“If you go back and think of why you loved the Attitude Era, growing up, do you know why you did? Here’s why, because there wasn’t a person on that show that you couldn’t describe to your friends and family and go “Hey! You’ve got to watch this show because of this guy cause they’re A, B, C, D, E”, up and down the card. Go and describe, even three or four, that are on the modern shows today. You can’t, and that’s because they’re not selling you WHO and they’re not selling you WHY but, instead, they’re just selling you what they do physically.”
“This approach, results in wrestlers taking greater and greater, true and legitimate, physical risks because, let’s face it, every time you walk to the ring there is a percentage of a chance that you could suffer a life altering or life ending injury. Now, that goes up exponentially because it’s not about me and who I am or why I am attempting to do this, it’s all about the move itself and has turned into an athletic stunt – show. As a result, we have now increased the odds, for both performers, that one of them is going to suffer some type of injury, and it happens.”
“The talent are being rewarded, they’re being praised, getting critical acclaim, being told that what they are doing is great by audience members that are wrestling journalists, and that’s all they are is audience members because they’ve never done it or been involved of the process of setting up a ring or selling tickets or have taken a bump. Period. These journalists appreciate the physicality and athleticism so they, then, inspire the performers to do so.”
“Therefore, the performers do it, get the critical acclaim and also get the reward of being more featured and have attention at the top of the card. Meanwhile, this now drives all of the lower level and mid-card talent to now aspire to be those guys, cause what they’re getting is what they want, which exponentially means the ‘stunt’ wrestling ever increases, thus the risk ever increases, thus the injuries increase and the audience decreases. Why? Because they are not getting what they bought a ticket to see.”
“At the end of the day, regardless of what you might think or say, if you are the average person with a wife/ husband with kids then it is, or can be, an expensive day out. The tickets will be a lot of money, you’ll have to pay for parking, plus food and drink cause your kids will want to eat, plus buying merchandise from the stalls, and the one you want to do while your watching is to forget that you’re going to have to pay the power bill late because you took that money out to take your family out to go and have a good time. You just want to forget and believe in what’s happening and who they are and why they’re doing it. That’s it.”
“The less Stone Cold Steve Austin wrestled, the more of a draw he became because you wanted to be like him more and more, and as a result he became more and more of a draw but that’s not what they’re aspiring to be anymore, that’s what’s changed.”
I would like to thank Mr Sarven for taking the time out to do this exclusive interview, in what was a fully loaded discussion of great knowledge and insight into the wrestling business, from one of its best minds.
You can catch the hit docuseries ‘Wrestlers’ on Netflix and Ohio Valley Wrestling (OVW) on FITE TV, Roku, Amazon Prime or any of the stations on the image below.
